The Root of All Evil?

Oooooooh bollocks! Haven’t got it taped have you! I guess there’s always More4. Damn, damn and arghhhh!

(I need my life back)

A resounding AMEN to that! Reading this made me grin like a loon.

Paul, Paul, Paul… After all your fine words that I should watch this program, and you can’t even be bothered to watch to give me an opposing view! Huh!

Thanks, “A friend”, I wonder who you could be… grin.

Well you kind of cheated by making the e-mail address required, didn’t you? I daresay I could have put in a load of gobbledegook (how do you spell that anyway?!)

I hope a friend is who I think it is…

Who do you think it is Paul? Come on, your best guess!

Oh good, a game! Are you female?

Jon, is this one of your ‘Special’ friends????

Kris, nope, just a friend. Nothing special.

Keep up the faith. Scientists will do whatever they can to prove religion wrong, to the point where an accepted theory consists of ‘nothing turns into something, something explodes without cause or reason, single cell organisms magically appeqar then develop into multi-celled ones’

seriously.. who writes that stuff. i find it far easier to just think, “yep, god made it, he made it all and scientists need to look outside the physical and logical existance”

Scientists do not try to prove religion wrong, they try to find out how things happen, then publish the evidence. If others then want to go through this evidence and say “Hey that contradicts this passage in this Holy text!” thats up to them.

(And really, how can it be better to say “God made it”, and then to top it off to actually fight about which God??!! )

As ‘Christians’, do you pray? - An honest answer please.

Yeah. That’s exactly it: Make it as easy as possible for yourself and if somebody starts questioning the wisdom of “god” because he apparently doesn’t care about cruelties happening on earth you say: “It is not allowed to question his wisdom. He has a reason to do this. It is only our narrow human mind, which ist too blind to understand.” Honestly, I find it a lot easier to “believe” in (or rather be convinced of) scientific facts than some collection of philosophical texts from a time when people still believed that thunder and lightning are the wrath of a big guy with a hammer and a beard.
By the way, Mr. Lloyd, of course it is much more logical that a lonely “supernatural being” sits around for billions of years and suddenly decides to create a universe within seven days (including billions of galaxies) because he was somewhat bored. And because he felt funny, he placed “tons and tons of evidence” (R. Dawkins) for evolution, the actual age of our planet etc. into our world to keep us occupied and to convince us that… yeah, what? That he does NOT exist…

Thanks for all your comments! This is exactly the sort of debate I love getting into. As I said in my post, I really don’t have any of the answers, but when you think about it who does. I know people that will argue that red is blue or a car is a tree. “It’s all about perception”, they’ll say.

All I’m saying is that there might just be more to the story of our world than evolution. Just so you know, I’m not knocking evolution! It makes perfect sense to explain how life changed over time into the complex organism that populate the planet today.

I understand that there is no way we can solve this debate. It’s up to you to follow your heart. I do think though that you owe it to yourself to find out more. Find out about this Jesus dude, what he did, and what he was about - before you dismiss it out of hand. I’m still learning. I have very few fixed ideas about God and the universe. You can’t put God in a box, and say “That’s it, I’ve got Him figured out”. All I know is I can’t wait to find out more!

Hi,

I too watched the documentary by Richard Dawkins and have posted an article on my blog at truthmedia.co.uk. I look forward to viewing part two on Monday.

The thing is that there is no convincing some people, even if you had massive amounts of evidence to the contrary. That is why I have given up arguing about religion. I will say this though.

With regards to the hypothesis that ‘nothing turns in to something’, that is a reference to Quantum Mechanics and as anyone who knows anything about Quantum Physics will tell you, that is indeed a scientific fact. At the quantum level sub atomic particles do indeed appear out of nowhere only to then instantly reappear somewhere else. Without getting in to too much detail I would advise you to take a look at the astonishing process of String Theory or M Theory, these will go some way to explain why this process happens, and I guarantee you will be amazed. Alternatively check out the PBS documentary ‘The Elegant Universe’ or BBC Horizons ‘Parallel Universes’ these documentaries are fascinating to say the least. Scientists don’t just pull statements and ideas out of the air and expect you to believe what they say, that is the job of the religious leaders and theologians. Scientists painstakingly observe their ideas through experiments taking accumulative notes and compare those notes over many years to come to the conclusions they do, they don’t just simply say, ‘in the beginning there was the word and the word was God’, ‘God said let their be light and their was’. Come on give these individuals some credit, you would not be living in the technologically advanced society that you live in today if it where not for these individuals.

As for single celled organisms magically appearing out of nowhere you are slightly confused. I suggest you do some research. An ethereal being that looks like a man floating in the dimension of ‘heaven’ controlling the entire universe, come on who writes this stuff. Well, over 40 different people across hundreds of years actually. Superstitious people I may add.

Imagine this, a primitive human being, one that lived many hundreds of thousands of years ago, limited if any language, no technology, and very small tribe. OK. Now imagine how strange and wondrous the world around seems. He has no way of explaining the things that go on around him. The stars at night, the sun rising in the early hours of the morning, the aurora borealis. How does he explain these things? The only way he can through superstition, he creates mythical gods or demons that control these occurrences. Over many more thousands of years these superstitions evolve in to primitive religions, and then again in to organised religions, then to religions that use this power to control the masses of people within their community, and now to the present day. The fact is that the bible with which Christians refer to today was constructed by a group of individuals many years ago. Kings and religious leaders got together and edited texts to form a new authoritative version one which we still use today. Don’t believe me, go and find out.

As for religious experiences, I do believe that people do experience what they believe to be a religious experience. But imagine this, forget for a moment that religion was ever ‘invented’, accept for a moment that we have no concept of god or religion, now what would you attribute that experience to.

Regards

Gareth

“Kings and religious leaders got together and edited texts to form a new authoritative version one which we still use today. Don’t believe me, go and find out.”

If Jesus’ claims about himself are true then He is the Son of God and such a fact will rock the foundations of all your beliefs. Don’t believe me, go and find out.

‘If Jesus’ claims about himself are true then He is the Son of God and such a fact will rock the foundations of all your beliefs. Don’t believe me, go and find out.’

See what I mean…there’s just no convincing some people. Their would be no way to prove either way whether his claims where true or not. There is question to whether Jesus was actually a real individual anyway. Although I do believe that he or someone similar was an historical figure, that in no way indicates that he was the son of god.

Regards

Gareth

Thet is the problem: people with a scientific background and people with a (rather radical) religious background simply can’t dicuss, because they discuss on different bases. The scientific people want to convince the religious people by producing evidence and questioning everything until it is proven. Religious people don’t need to prove anyting, because they “believe”. Belive beats any prove, because it needs no justification.
For the “scientists” the argument “bcause it is written” has no meaning whatsoever.

Hey Gareth, thanks for your comments! You’re argument is both well thought out and well presented.

Quantum Mechanics is a tricky one, I’m not saying I’m dismissing any of the “theories” but as the name suggests that’s all they are. Indeed science is a constantly changing, evolving thing. There are some things we know, some things we don’t. I’m sure any scientist would agree that nothing is set in stone. All I’m saying, and indeed what I’ve been saying all along, is don’t close your mind to other possibilities just because they don’t fit in with your scientific beliefs. I don’t dismiss what you’re saying just because it doesn’t fit in with my faith. I’m finding out more, eyes open!

As for “There’s just no convincing some people” which I’m sure was directed at “A Friend”, I’m sure she doesn’t require convincing. She has a strong faith, which I really respect. But I’m sure, like me, her faith isn’t blind-faith either. As she says: “Don’t believe me, go and find out”.

And to you “A Friend” thanks for your comments, you’re always welcome!

Peter, agreed, I think you totally hit the nail on the head. To me Science doesn’t disprove my faith, it only makes it stronger, because like Gareth said, everything we find out about the way the world works through Science is so amazing, so astounding, so unbelievable. It works for me. Faith does not come through proof, that’s really the whole point of it. If I could prove my faith it would cease to be faith.

And I don’t really know enough science to argue with scientists. And I’ve never been all that good at arguing anyway!

Thanks Jon, I appreciate it.

See Jon, told you this post was a good idea! Nothing like a good debate to get your blog noticed!

Personally, I agree a lot with what Gareth is saying, and I do believe the Bible to biggest work of fiction there is. You’ve got to remember that these texts have thousands of years old, past down and translated across generations, with a number of it’s changes well documented.

Of course on the other side of the argument, and something that scientist will never be able to explain is ‘why am I here’, ‘why do I exist at all?’ But perhaps again thats just the way we have evolved, and believe everything should have a reason and explaination to it.

In essense I guess I’m saying I can respect religions to a point, but I tend to think most go too far, and live outside the real world. But if it’s a tool to provide strength and comfort to it’s followers (and without causing conflict) then I have no problem with that. There needs to be respect and understanding from both sides of the argument.

This such a big topic though, too big for this comment form, and far too hard for me to articulate my feelings accurately - a great one for discussion at the pub though!

What a great idea Lloydy, lets discuss this at the PUB tonight?????

Great idea Kris! That’s my church!

Hi,

My reference to Quantum Mechanics was in response to ‘A Friend’ and her comments regarding ‘who writes this stuff’ and about how things appear out of nothing; I was only clarifying what years of research have shown.

‘Quantum Mechanics is a tricky one, I’m not saying I’m dismissing any of the “theories” but as the name suggests that’s all they are. Indeed science is a constantly changing, evolving thing.’

With regards to your above comment. All science whether established fact or not is still just theory, that much we can agree on. Even gravity is still just a theory, one that is increasingly being proven by Quantum Physics to not be entirely accurate.

With regard to having an open mind, I do have an open mind…but, although religion does contradict many scientific claims it does not back up those counter-claims with evidence and so faith in such beliefs is ‘blind faith’ regardless of what you say. To believe in something that is not an established fact and something that has no supporting evidence is to have ‘blind faith’. With regards to science though, it approaches things in much the same way, the only difference is scientists have a theory and believe in that theory totally, but what they do is experiment and observe until they can prove their theory, religion doesn’t, take the celestial teapot example outlined in Dawkins’ documentary.

If there is a god that god transcends anything human beings could imagine it to be. It is arrogant of us to believe that we have some sort of special connection with a being that allegedly created a vast universe, consisting of billions of solar systems within millions upon millions of galaxies within clusters of galaxies. And we are the only beings of importance out their, come on.

With regards to why we exist or why we are here. We exist simply because we exist, there is no higher purpose, and we could have easily not existed were the conditions on Earth not right for life. I have trouble in comprehending anyone’s beliefs that human beings just appeared one day. That is an absolutely ridiculous notion. You must understand that the times when these religions were born, people very little about the world and universe in which we live. It is the 21st century and we have come along way since then, and to me it is sad to see that people still give so much credence to arcane belief systems born out of superstition. Do you believe in the Greek gods or the demy-god of Indian belief, how about the nature gods of the American Indians, they are just as valid as Christianity but are obviously ridiculous notions, the fact that we have clung on to these specific beliefs astounds me, just goes to show how powerful the Muslim and catholic religions are.

Regards

Gareth

Also to ‘A friends’ comments above. Faith is something you can have whether what you believe in is proven or not. Say for example my friend is very good at building computers; I could say that ‘I have faith in his ability to build computers’. If their suddenly came to light proof of gods existence would you no longer have faith in him/her?

Note that there are many prominent scientists who believe in god. Einstein for one. So science and religion can co exist. Quantum Mechanics as you may have guessed is one of my favourite subjects. It is increasingly showing that the belief systems concerning, Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Tao etc, may have a lot of merit in explaining how the fundamentals of the universe work, many of the conclusions that Quantum Physicists are coming to show this. Also note that these religions do not believe in an all powerful god, as far as I am aware.

Regards

Gareth

I really take issue with people who suggest that I need my faith as some sort of “crutch” because I am in some way weak. I am no weaker than any other person.

As for the conclusion that as Christians we do have “blind faith”, in the literal sense of the word, perhaps we do. It says in Corinthians that we “Live by faith, not by sight”. However, I can assure you that there is much more to it than a mere unquestioning belief. How stupid would that make us? Do you really think we would believe this thing if it were not a two way relationship? If it was us just barking at God and getting no reply? If it was just a nice fairytale to believe to keep us warm at night? I love Jesus, and he’s not an imaginary bloke, he walks beside me everywhere I go. He has proved in my life time and time again that he is real, and he has offered plentiful proof to me of his existence.

Paul said, if we Christians are wrong then we are to be pitied above all men… but consider the implications for YOU if we are right…

Amen to that! You go girl.

I realise this isn’t perhaps the most eloquent or well thought out comment ever, but sometimes you have to go with your gut.

And as for “established fact”… Is there such a thing??

I am not in any way suggesting that those who choose christianity are weaker than any of the rest of us - we all have to live our lives and deal with the trials and tribulations that it throws at us. I just believe that some may choose religion, where as others deal with life in a different way.

“Paul said, if we Christians are wrong then we are to be pitied above all men… but consider the implications for YOU if we are right…”

Is that some sort of threat? If I understood the Bible right, Jesus died for our sins and gave all of us a free ticket for heaven, even if we are non-believers (which is a sin, as I take it). So I can happily stay an atheist and when the end of days comes I stad in front of Him and He sais: “Damnation or Heaven? Oh wait, there is no one on the list for damnation. Lucky you. Have fun up there. Next please! … Damnation or Heaven? …”

Sorry about that, but I like to be polemic sometimes.

Erm… No. Sorry.

John 3:16 says

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

You’ve gotta believe! There is a whole debate about whether you can fall from grace once you’ve been saved through miss-action, but I’ll leave that can-o-worms for another time.

I think you’ll find the Bible is full of contradictions, but having only read an illustrated childrens version, I freely admit I haven’t a leg to stand on with this argument!

Ah. Dammit. So I’m doomed. Well, I take the risk. At least I will not be alone. There will be Billions of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, other Atheists and (according to certain groups within Christianity) also a whole lot of Christians down there with me. I wouldn’t want to spend eternity with a bunch of elitary folks anyway. Shold be a lot more cozy in hell with Gandhi, Stephen Hawking, Kurt Cobain and John Lennon anyway.

…S**t. I knew, I forgot something.

Yeah but isnt’t Jessica Simpson a devout Christian????
I’m sitting on the fence until i’ve analysed the potential afterlife location of all the fitties……
I’m afraid Gandhi just doesnt do it for me!!!
Hmmmmm Angelina Jolie on the other hand is definitely going to hell!!!

Its all so confusing

Hmmm. Now that I think about it… Monroe? Down there. Hepburn? Down there. Cameron Diaz? Still here, but down there with us later on. And I can live without Jessica Simpson. I once watched her MTV-Show and when I see her now, I have to think about the fact how incredibly stupid she is. That somehow spoils her for me, despite her looks.

But that’s not the topic here.

“I once watched her MTV-Show”

I think that was your first error mate!!!

ok, this is getting a little off-topic. I’m stopping it there. New post soon.